A network for people of Irish heritage
Re: The Abuse of Irish Babies and Children
I just couldnt stand by and not say a word about the Horrible disgusting abuse of young Irish Children that was allowed to go on for over 50 years. I feel we all owe it to the victims/survivors to stand up and support them in having their voice heard. If we all remain silent on this issue then we become part of the problem and not part of the solution. Isnt this one of the reasons why it went on in the first place and for so long . . . because it was all swept under the carpet and the Church and Institutions and the Authority protected the abusers and remained silent. I feel totally let down by the very people who taught and preached right and wrong to us all in schools thoughout our childhood. We dont ever forget the good people who taught and cared for children but we must never forget the pain and suffering that those abused children must have gone through. Cathy Harris
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Alan Hennessy on -
My own view on the Ryan Report revelations is , and I know I'm stating the obvious, that since the foundation of the state the religious orders held too powerful a sway over all aspects of Irish life. I went to St. Joseph's Christian Brothers School in North Dublin in the late 50's and early 60's and it was a very unpleasant experience. Fear was the key to your daily education. If you fell foul of a Brother you were in for a very tough year. To put it another way..... you, as a nine year old boy, would have a 25 year old man physically beating you with a variety of impliments including his fists. I'm not going into it here but I have an abiding memory of a fellow class mate sitting in front of me and I noticed that the back of his ears were black and dark blue due to broken blood vessels as he had been picked up by the ears and shook. Another who couldn't write for a week because his fingers and nails were black from being given 48 strokes of the leather on one day and being given the same treatment the following day. Not one parent came up to the school to complain during my time there. Eventually my mother did go to the principal and for me the beatings stopped. She had said she would send me to a Protestant school if the particular Brother didn't stop his punishment of me. It worked. Later, when I was 11, my father moved to a job in the country and we went with him. From then on I started to learn for the love of learning itself and not from fear. Have a look at this youtube attachment as Michael O'Brien speaks of his experience on Questions and Answers. I think it is one of the most moving accounts of suffering at the hands of the religious in Ireland. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBi4sYK5rjI
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Permalink Reply by Cathy on -
Hi Alan
Thank you for your reply to the above discussion. I too have memories of being physically beaten by the Nuns. I have heard Michael O Brien's moving account of his experiences and I am in awe of his courage and bravery. I have worked for many years in Child Protection and know only too well the long term affects that those experiences spoken about will have and have on the individuals. I hope that the survivors will get the justice and peace they so deserve.
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Permalink Reply by Karl Schweppe on -
Hi Cathy,
I have being following the story about this from my home in Birmingham in England. It is quite unbelievable what happened. What's sadder is that every knew and did nothing: the church, the state and we Irish ourlselves. What happened? What kind of people were we. Why did nobody stop this? That is the thing I simply don't understand. I hate the expression, but there does seem to be something of "collective responsibility" for this. I simply beggars belief.
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Permalink Reply by Alan Hennessy on
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Sadly Karl it's not the end of the revelations. The Dublin Diocesan Report is due for publishing soon and it promised to be another bombshell of depravity. Education has to be taken out of the hands of the religeous orders. Will the politicians has the courage to stand up and be counted? That remains to be seen.
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Permalink Reply by Terrance O'Dwyer on -
Alan, firstly, thank you for writing about your painful memories. I have read about the difficult conditions in the “homes” and about the sex-related scandals but I had not realized physical violence was so pervasive that it might as well be described as institutionalized—at least in some places. Following the revelations here in the states, the ‘news’ part of the recent Ryan report was the ability of the Irish Christian Brothers to prevent publication of the names of offending religious.
Alan, you make Lord Acton’s point that ‘absolute power corrupts absolutely,’ and my impression is the Roman Catholic Church wielded something close to absolute power during much of the 1930s—1980s. [to wit, was there a state church?; and, did that church intervene freely in civic matters?] Superimpose the perpetually lousy economy where jobs were precious & I can begin to understand how parents & students suffered in silence. Fear must be experienced to be appreciated; decisions made under duress may not be noble. But we can’t apply the mindset of highly educated gen x/y/z folk in assessing the acquiescence of earlier generations. In a general sense, I take the other side of the ‘collective responsibility’ debate. That said, I hope ‘never again to absolute power’ applies for all of us—whether in Ireland or USA or anywhere.
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Permalink Reply by Alan Hennessy on
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Terrance, it looks like momentum is gathering here to pursue the offenders who are still alive. Mainly because of the public outcry over a reluctance of the orders to give them up. You're right about the 1930's-'80's involvement of church in state matters. Priests were involved in most committees and government appointed bodies and their views were taken seriously in all matters of daily life through legislation.
A simple example, Irish dancing was a free and joyful way to meet people of the opposite sex in the 20's through to the 70's in country areas. Initially ordinary people organised the events in their areas. Dancing at the crossroads, it literally means that, was arranged from Spring to Summer each year and a platform (temporary stage) was erected at a crossroads. This went on all over the country and you could tell where a dancer came from by the way he danced. So there were several regional variations of Gaelic dancing. The church decided that this type of expression was "ungodly", as it could lead to sex before marriage and colluded with the state to have it stopped. A story goes that one parish priest was so incensed that he drove his car over one of these temporary stages in order to prevent the continuation of a dance gathering.
All dancing was moved inside dance halls (ballrooms) and only minerals were sold. Priests frequented these halls and sometimes were collecting the cash for entry. A code was devised, basically modern Irish set dancing, where minimum physical contact was maintained. Unfortunately many of our regional Gaelic dancing traditions went out the window as a consequence of these changes. This is just one example of how church held sway over state. I have attached a youtube video of "Dancing at the crossroads", hope you enjoy it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmkaWZ9ieGU
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Permalink Reply by Terrance O'Dwyer on
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A few far-flung, but related thoughts.
1. the Bunclody Ceili Band video dates from 1963, when Pius XII was pope, aand whose formative years were influenced by the notion that church is a hierarchical institution, and indeed is a “perfect society,” founded by Jesus Christ. Laity were uneducated sinners— and though the Irish were clearly favored by God, their role was to obey and pray. [ just google church perfect society to corroborate the above; disregard any obvious anti-RC references.]
2. From the Jesuit magazine, America: “Given this view, church officials saw themselves responsible before God for protecting the church’s organization and its functions of sanctifying, teaching and governing. In Pius XII and the Holocaust (2002), José M. Sánchez has pinpointed a pope’s “first obligation” according to the ecclesiology of perfect society: “As head of an institutional church, he is charged with protecting that church; according to Catholic theology, the church is the necessary means of providing the sacraments which give the grace needed for salvation. Without the priests to administer the sacraments and the freedom to receive them, Catholics can be hindered in their search for salvation” (p. 36).’
The preceding paragraph is from an article about theHolocaust, but it illustrates a single-mindedness about ‘avoiding the near occasions of sin.’ Remember, the hitherto operative teaching on marriage was Casti Connubbi and contravening the sixth commandment was almost always a mortal sin. Small wonder that dancing was banned---besides, just look at what the redneck Cajuns do
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPUZ1A0frH8&feature=related
3. I hope we have learned that there is no perfect society & & & that the notion that some group absolutely knows the will of God is abhorrent. Checks and balances are frustrating—dictatorships are worse.
That said, there have been countless outstanding sisters, brothers & priests that have labored tirelessly & selflessly.
I have been long-winded, but i have been trying to put seemingly irrational behavior into context, and to illustrate Oscar Wilde’s most perceptive observation: Ideas Have Consequences.
I enjoyed Bunclody CB & hope ‘yall be fixin a have bon temps’ with the Cajun.
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Permalink Reply by Alan Hennessy on
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Hey Terrance, I really like Cajun music and I'm saving it to 'my favourites'. You are an erudite man and blessed with noble ecclesiastics and I particularly like your point 3 above. It only takes a few bad apples and the barrel is ruined. I know many fine priests and nuns and the great pity is they feel betrayed too as they were informed about the Ryan Report in the same way the public at large were informed, through the media. What the victims feel is betrayal by State, Church and Rome in that Rome could have resolved to have this mess delt with by outing the beasts some considerable time ago. I'll state, at the time of writing this, that the Vatican remains silent on the recent revelations. In my almost six decades of life as a Catholic I have seen and lived through the dark and the light as far as Mother Church is concerned and it has, without doubt, made me stronger. Voltaire wrote, 'If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him'. I'll go along with that.
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Permalink Reply by Pauline Fayne on -
well said Cathy
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